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Airport vote could be held Tuesday; rejection recommended

LAWRENCEVILLE -- The Gwinnett County Board of Commissioners, one member short amid the throes of another scandal, could finally vote Tuesday on the proposed privatization of Briscoe Field. The official recommendation is for rejection of the proposal.

The agenda packet posted online after business hours Friday includes an item listed as "approval to reject ... a public-private partnership for the lease, operation and improvement of Gwinnett County Airport." A vote on the proposal from Propeller Airports -- the sole company to submit a proposal -- would likely be held during a 2 p.m. business session Tuesday.

A work sessions is scheduled for 10 a.m.

The agenda packet also included a memo which detailed the evaluation committee's reasoning behind recommending rejection.

Evaluation teams said that "while the proposal included a sufficient team of subcontractors ... it provided only minimal detail for the operation, development, and planning for Briscoe Field. Emphasis was placed on the concept of and justification for air carrier service at Briscoe."

Among several other potential issues, the memo issued by the Department of Transportation's Martin Conroy pointed to the proposal's "minimal responses to key technical proposal elements." Financial elements of the proposal also "provided minimal detail and lacked supporting information to adequately assess the validity of the financial projections," the memo said.

Propeller Airports' Brett Smith could not be reached for comment Friday.

Tuesday's potential vote would come just five days after Commissioner Shirley Lasseter resigned and pleaded guilty to bribery charges stemming from "selling" her vote on a proposed Duluth pawn shop. According to the U.S. Attorney's Office, Lasseter also told an undercover agent that her vote on the airport was open to bribes.

Briscoe Field has been a hotbed of contention with citizens for more than two years.

In his recommendation, Conroy called the proposal's score "significantly low."

"Based upon the minimal detail provided in the technical and financial portions of the Propeller proposal as well as the concerns noted previously, the Department (of Transportation) recommends rejection of the proposal," Conroy wrote.

Comments

Cleanupguy 1 year, 10 months ago

Artie Johnson used to say "Verrrry Interesting". Yes, I know, as the likely incontinent Teepee and other similar factually challenged and (we might only presume) ostensibly mental deficients and/or paid minions have noted hererin, tens of thousands of imaginary jobs, mega aircraft that cannot take off nor land at Briscoe due to their size, zero chance of success (nationally historically speaking) with the bankrupt prone Propeller Fellers (that probably were behind the rampant bribing in the first place), taxpayers on the hook, etc., but what the heck - QUICK - look over there! Anyone recall Lasseter's fake high paying state job with John Oxendine? Sorry, but boo-hoo for the selling of her soul, it was her choice, but then again, those higher up the food chain watched as she sunk into the political quicksand. OK, so we have an opportunity to VOTE - District 1 candidate Laurie McClain is a FLY GWINNETT FORWARD member - GET IT YET?????

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Cleanupguy 1 year, 10 months ago

Check the photo posted by Teepee below - it depicts nicely what the surrounding areas of the places that this has been done now look like.

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CD 1 year, 10 months ago

It looks like the housing market may be at its natural, market-clearing point, certainly very close. If our banks can remain righted with the European crisis unfolding (Morgan Stanley debt is trading in junk status now and their stock price is far less than tangible book value), and consumers continue spending, the housing market may actually gain momentum. At least homeowners will not face the additional headwind, should the BOC actually make the correct decision, related to an additional price drop for any property in the immediate vicinity of Briscoe or a flight-path stricken property, which would affect many more cities in the swath of destruction.

This would be good news for much of Gwinnett. I hope it is so. I wish Brett and Co. would simply go away.

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166LZU 1 year, 10 months ago

Sounds like Propeller's proposal got a solid "F". Don't pass GO. Don't collect $200. Don't go away mad, Propeller. Just go away...

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R 1 year, 10 months ago

Seems we sent our RFP out to 19 firms with only 1 response. Gwinnett PDF package starts page 504 of 551 page 505 NUMBER OF BIDS/PROPOSALS MAILED: 19 Responses 1

IMG reviewed the Technical Proposal and PFM reviewed the Financial Proposal. Both firms provided input to the evaluation committee, but did not participate in the scoring of the Proposal.

The evaluation committee noted that while the Proposal included a sufficient team of subcontractors, primarily through Aéroports de Paris Management (ADPM), it provided only minimal detail for the operation, development, and planning for Briscoe Field. Emphasis was placed on the concept of and justification for air carrier service at Briscoe.

Both IMG and PFM also expressed concern that the portions of the Proposal they each reviewed were lacking in detail. Propeller’s Proposal provided minimal responses to key technical proposal elements including:

The transition plan Community relations plan Operations and maintenance plan Short term airport development Long term airport development

The evaluation committee and consultant noted the Proposal’s financial elements also only provided minimal detail and lacked supporting information to adequately assess the validity of the financial projections including: No pro forma or even high level financial plan to show how anticipated revenues would support the financing.

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R 1 year, 10 months ago

Limited information on the major capital improvements of the planned facilities including location, acquisition of current leases, timing, and sources of funding. Lack of supporting information on expected traffic volumes (enplanements) and timing of anticipated traffic levels. Lack of supporting information on anticipated revenues (amounts for parking, car rental, food sales, retail sales, fuel sales, etc…).

Additional potential issues with the Proposal: The County would not see any direct revenue based on the Proposal for 4 years (paid in arrears beginning after 3 years).

The “minimum gross revenue sharing guarantee” of $500,000 is approximately one half of the current Airport revenue, excluding ad valorem taxes from based aircraft many of which may be displaced due to improvements. In addition, this minimum guarantee remains at $500,000 per year throughout the remaining 46 years of the proposed lease and is not adjusted to account for inflation.

The forecasted Sales Tax revenue to the County calculates to 2%. The direct revenue benefit to Gwinnett County Government would only be 1%. *Further it appears to make the assumption that SPLOST Programs would be in place for the entire 50 year lease term.

The County would be expected to waive ad valorem taxes on any buildings, grounds or airport work vehicles and equipment owned or acquired by Propeller.

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R 1 year, 10 months ago

Please give them a "Thank You for Participating Trophy" and a Chamber Goody bag on the way out of town...

"Brets leavin on a jet plane, don't know when he'll be back again"

Apologies to Peter, Paul and Mary

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R 1 year, 10 months ago

And lest we forget some of the "unsung" heroes here;

Thank you Gwinnett County staff for being .... INSOBORDINATE!!

We LOVE you!

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pcjohn 1 year, 10 months ago

R - Thanks for all that information on Briscoe Field. As usual, the devil was in the details. Looks like the BOC was going to give away the proverbial farm to Propeller, just like they did for Nasuti's white elephant of a baseball field. And, of course, all the financial deficit would fall upon the taxpayers. With all the negatives you presented I'm sure the BOC will vote down the proposal. That is, unless some money gets spread around quickly. For this is Gwinnett where money trumps facts all the time.

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kevin 1 year, 10 months ago

Funny how fast this vote came up! The whole OBC is sitting on the edge of its seats about now. Even Kim Conroy, (DOT) agreed the proposal was bad and not fully disclosed by Propeller. There were 3 "for" votes on this BOC until Thursday. That forced the other 2 to get the hell out of dodge.

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teelee 1 year, 10 months ago

I guess Gwinnett County will remain number one in home foreclosures and personal bankruptcies. It's not like jobs and prosperity could actually increase home values in Gwinnett and encourage people to move in and fill the thousands of empty homes and businesses. Thank you to all who helped ruin our chances for the best regional airport in the south, people like the Gwinnett Daily Post staff and there bias negative reporting on the issue. Did they ever once do a positive story and show pictures of the artist rendering of the beautiful new terminals or how the bus system could actually be used? Thank you to the Atlanta offices of the FAA who are out to protect Hartsfield-Jackson and their cash cow. Thank you to the 300 hysterical Lawrenceville residents who warned us about the Cancer and lead poisoning that was going to affect all of us and our children. Thank you to the Twelve Stone Church and your sound system that demonstrated the phony baloney noise levels of a jets flying over. It's not like train tracks run next to Briscoe Field or anything. Thanks to the Atlanta Journal and Constitution for protecting their Atlanta airport and also refusing to show the positive side of this expansion. Thank you to the Gwinnett County Commissioners both past and present for allowing such a wonderful opportunity to slip away with all of the indecision and controversy, no wonder the bidders backed off. Hartsfield- Jackson has continued to grow and expand their operations over the last few years as Gwinnett totally dropped the ball on this golden opportunity.

I would like to ask the anti airport people to please share their ideas on what they think will help turn this county around since they have all of the answers? Gwinnett County has a 30 million dollar lawsuit to pay off with the cities. County employees have not had a pay raise in years and they are starting to lose quality people. We need a first class police force since we usually have the top violent news story of the night on the evening news. Our mostly unused public bus system is losing money. Please tell us how to turn this all around because the answer is not the construction that we thrived on for over 30 years and made us the fastest growing county in the country. Remember those days??? Go ahead and hold the vote on Tuesday so we can see who understands this and who doesn't. I still have faith in a couple of the commissioners and I think they should table this issue until we have a full commission and it can be properly voted on.

None

by teelee

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

Give me a break teepee. Your ignorant rhetoric is tiring. The airport expansion is a sham. If you think it would boost the economy and create 18000 jobs, you are a total idiot. There were no facts to back up Propellers fraudulent proposal. Enough of your crap.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

Let's have a county vote on this teepee. We don't need to wait for another crook on the BOC. More than 80 percent of the voters would vote this down.

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

Talk about enough of your crap..80% voting it down? What a laugh.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

I'm sure you would vote for this fraud. There is nothing viable in Propeller's proposal. The 18000 jobs are a farce. You are in the minority. Despite what you believe, most people in Gwinnett are smarter than you.

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

Well..one thing's for sure...you are not one of them.

And there you go again with your hysterical psychobabble. If you say the 18,000 jobs are a farce you must have some factual number on how many jobs would be created. Please supply that number here unless you're having problems with feathers. Not I said FACTUAL number...not your usual hysterical psychobabble.

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R 1 year, 10 months ago

You SERIOUSLY believe, based on what was released, that it would pass? Why would you burden us in such a manner? Please step away from the campaign…

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

R....did I say it would pass or is this just more of the hysterical psychobabble from your side. The other hysterical ranter said 80% would be against it. Horse hockey

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CLawrenceville 1 year, 10 months ago

Floyd, please read all the facts put together by the FAA, two aviation consultants and the DOT. Briscoe is not a viable location for a regional airport. Also, no regional field built in the last 40 years has succeeded. You may think this is a good idea, but the professionals, the ones who know the facts, know it will fail. Groups were asked to study the feasibility of this airport and all rejected it. Why have them do the studies, if you are going to ignore their results. It is time to put our energies to work elsewhere.

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Karl 1 year, 10 months ago

If this were put to the citizens for a vote, it would pass. The hysterical screaming folks numbering several hundred have no idea that the majority of the county would like to see Briscoe privatized and commercialized.

The vocal minority NIMBYs have struck again.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

I don't believe there are that many idiots in Gwinnett. You are ignoring the fact that there was no substance to the proposal.

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Katrina 1 year, 10 months ago

Karl, Do you know any other adjectives besides "hysterical"? Everyone of you pro-privatization folks have just beaten that word to death. You make ad hominem arguments, attacking people rather than addressing their arguments. Damn skippy, we're NIMBYs--we value quality-of-life. Besides, you have no facts to show that this airport privatization/commercialization would succeed.

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R 1 year, 10 months ago

Don’t you mean Propeller for submitting a proposal that contained NO supporting Finance data? (Just as solid as the jobs they collected resumes for)

Or depended on SPLOST to be ongoing for the complete term of the 50 year lease?

Or that DIDN’T raise the payment to the county factoring in ANY inflation over the period of the lease. But would take half the revenue that we get now?
(Sounds A LOT like T-SPLOST doesn’t it?)

Or CLEARLY showed how Propeller would get paid - but nothing of how the county would share in the bounty?

Please jump in the Chamber Goody bag BEFORE they leave - OK?

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rco1847 1 year, 10 months ago

HeyTeeLee - your girlfriend Shirley called - she's needs that 35 grand back.

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R 1 year, 10 months ago

OPPS Transfered to Chamber TSPLOST call centers sorry!
But it bought a lot of beer ...

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CLawrenceville 1 year, 10 months ago

Teelee, it is time that Fly Gwinnett Forward realizes that with all the professionals giving this project an F, you need to give it up. From the FAA, to consultants and finally the DOT you have to realize, Briscoe is not a viable place for a regional field. Fly Gwinnett cannot look at the facts and honestly still want to stick the taxpayers of Gwinnett with this bill. The airport has a 99% chance of being a failure, so says all the professionals who should know. Please do like I do. Drive to the Marta station on Buford Highway, get on the train and it will bring you right to the airport. No hassle, no big debt for a failed airport for Gwinnett. This airport really has no positives for Gwinnett. We can grow by being a very desirable location, let's work on that. No new business in Georgia has located by an airport, they obviously are not a draw. Good neighborhoods, good schools and a desirable location, that's what you need.

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Cleanupguy 1 year, 10 months ago

Teepee, you have repeatedly demonstrated that you have elevated stupidity to an art form. Do facts not ever enter into your narrow little life? Can you sing only one tired old tune? The photo looks EXACTLY like the areas where this concept has been implemented.

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Katrina 1 year, 10 months ago

Teelee, Do you know any other adjectives besides "hysterical"? As for the Post, the publisher, J. K. Murphy, is on record as being FOR the privatization/commercialization of Briscoe Field. And lastly, pinning all your hopes on the airport expansion for getting Gwinnett out of an economic slump makes no sense, as all the studies point to the airport expansion ultimately failing, which will only make Gwinnett worse off!

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

My personal hope is that the proposal is voted down 4-0. Lasseter's apparent willingness to sell her vote just doesn't sit well with anyone...me included. I think it puts whole proposal in IFR conditions and it shouldn't be passed. It has also concerned me that there is only one proposal. Frankly I'd be concerned with just two proposals but with only one I don't know if we could really know we had the best possible deal for the county. Regardless though, Lasseter's actions have put a, pardon the pun, cloud over the airport proposal and imho, it should be voted down.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

Where are the facts? There is no financing. There are no airlines. There is no detailed business plan. No legitimate economic model that can support the bogus jobs. There is only a subcontractor willing to take money. Who is going to underwrite this boondoggle? Propeller will expect the county to back any loan. The pretty drawings are only a fantasy. There is not enough demand for flights into Briscoe to support commercialization. Any commissioner, including your hero, who votes on this fraud should be investigated.

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

jljustis...have you ever heard of the saying "you can't dig your way out of a hole"....I'm guessing not.

Let me get this straight...someone votes other than how your hysterical shouting and assorted nonsense would like and they should be investigated. Okay...hmmmm...I'm trying to follow the logic but it's hard to follow zero.

btw...did you actually read my posting where I said the proposal should be voted down 4-0? Strike two on you.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

How can you say this is nonsense? Give me some facts. I am saying that Propeller’s proposal is not viable; it’s not reasonable; it’s not attainable; and it’s not reality. It’s pure fantasy. If it were viable, reasonable, and attainable, I would support commercialization. There are people who want this so bad that they refuse to look at the facts; there is no substantial support for Propeller’s proposal. They are grasping for a dream that can only turn into a nightmare and cost the county residents dearly. You have no facts to support the expansion. I'm not shouting. I'm trying to get you back to reality. If you can't follow my logic, you need help.

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

comments like "It's pure fantasy" are just that...hysterical nonsense.

Furthermore, I've yet to see you really have much of a factual posting. Screaming "it's not viable..." doesn't make it a fact.

Let me again try to follow the "logic" here. If Commissioner Beaudreau votes other than how you think he should you believe he should be investigated. That kind of thinking isn't.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

You keep posting nonsense. Put up or shut up. What are the facts that show that commercialization is viable, reasonable, and attainable? You’ve apparently been flying that little plane of yours too high and depleting your brain of oxygen. There is nothing, absolutely nothing that supports commercialization. Are you a member of Fly Gwinnett Forward? What are your facts? You have none. You just keeping posting vague bull! Let's see what happens with Mr. B.

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

Vague bull? YOU are the POSTERCHILD for Vague Bull. With respects to the M5 Unit...your facts (what few there are) are uncoordinated.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

In my opinion, you lack the intelligence to make a valid argument to support your assertions. You are pompous, and apparently believe you are intellectual. I believe it is best to stop addressing posts from someone of such a simple mind. You have the last word, give it your best shot.

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

comments like "It's pure fantasy" are just that...hysterical nonsense.

Furthermore, I've yet to see you really have much of a factual posting. Screaming "it's not viable..." doesn't make it a fact.

Let me again try to follow the "logic" here. If Commissioner Beaudreau votes other than how you think he should you believe he should be investigated. That kind of thinking isn't.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

You have posted nothing to support the proposal of Propeller. Even Mr. Conroy has provided information that states that Propeller's proposal lacks support.
Where are your facts? You have none.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

You have no facts; you have only emotion. Do you consider yourself smart? I do think there are substantial reasons to vote no. I question the integrity of someone who would ignore the facts.

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

jljustis...where you are concerned it's real hard to ignore nothing. You are nothing more than a screaming parrot simply repeating what they've heard from others and were too LAZY to do their own research.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

Where is the detailed business plan? Where is the financing? Where are the airlines? It is not viable. The facts are clear. What are you facts to dispute this? You have none. You only spout rhetoric. How can you be so dense?

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

I read your posting. Your reason for wanting it to be voted down is not based on the poor proposal. That is the issue.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

If other firms thought that commercialization was viable, why did they back out? If other firms thought that commercialization had the support of the majority of Gwinnett county residents, why did they back out? If this is such a great idea, why did every other firm back out? Such a great opportunity should have attracted more than 3; 2 backing out. What is believable about Propeller’s proposal? What is supportable?

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Mack711 1 year, 10 months ago

There may be possibilitythat there will be no one voting on this issue until they find some one to replace Lassiter. Should there be a "special election" that may take months. During that time it may give them time to regroup and get their act together. At this time does anyone know how a vote would go if it was taken on Tuesday? Do not know if we can trust any one on the BOC any more.

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

Mack...Commissioner Beadreau, despite the hysterical psychobabble, is a man of integrity. Remember the past grand jury investigation...Mike, along with everyone else, was looked at and the grand jury found nothing. Let me repeat that...nothing. Why? because there was nothing to find.

Look...there's no question that the BOC has take a hit in credibility with the other 3 commissioners actions. But instead of throwing them all out...how about we keep the good ones? Commissioner Beaudreau has conducted himself with integrity. That's the last sort of person we want to have leave.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

That is only your opinion. Many people do not support your opinion. Let's see how this plays out.

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

Make that EDUCATED opinion. I've worked with him more than enough to see how he thinks and conducts himself. If you were more than a hysterical parrot and actually had some interaction with him...Integrity would be the first word that you'd use to describe him.

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LoganvilleResident 1 year, 10 months ago

Commissioner Beadreau is my county commissioner. I have emailed him MULTIPLE times practically BEGGING him to respond to me. My emails have always been cordial and polite. However, I was expressing an opinion that differed from his. I have asked him to acknowledge that he has heard my opinion and he won't send me so much as a one word email.

As a result, Commissioner Beaudreau has lost my vote. I will do everything in my power to make sure he is not re-elected. He needs to learn that he must at least acknowledge his constituents even if they differ with his opinion.

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

Have you attended one of the saturday meetings with Mike? Called his office? I know the man...he's not ignoring your email...the volume is simply more than a part-time job allows for a personal response.

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NewsReader 1 year, 10 months ago

I've personally seen the man in action. I have witnessed his pompous arrogance toward the good people of Gwinnett County and on more than one occasion. I don't know who you think your kidding with your BS, but it is intuitively obvious you have blinders on, or you have something to gain from supporting him, or both. One thing is for certain - just make sure he has his turn signals mounted before you go following him around too much and too close, for you may run into his backside being his #1 fan and all! Your rhetoric, along with that of TeePee is just exhausting anymore.

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roaads1 1 year, 10 months ago

Floyd- I've known Mike Beadreau for years. You are absolutely correct. People post anonymously complaining about him, saying things they do not know like they have secret info no one else has. He votes his heart. He looks at what he thinks a vote yes or no will mean for Gwinnett 10 or 20 years from now. He doesn't sell his vote. His efforts in the land deals are what exposed them. After that everything he tried to do for his district got shot down by Kennerly and Bannister (and crew). He is there to serve. If someone doesn't like his vote on this or that they should complain about the vote and not attack his character. It take a coward to do that. Stick to the facts. Unlike a lot of the posts on this forum the facts will never change.

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jljustis 1 year, 10 months ago

Anonymously. Does that mean names like "roaads1"?

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Floyd_Akridge 1 year, 10 months ago

Agreed...over the past few days I've grown tired of listening to hysterical psychobabble about how Mike should be investigated because someone THINKS they know how he will vote. Sounds more like something coming from Vladimir Putin than in this nation.

Mike is a good man and I suspect he'll be fine in the election.

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rco1847 1 year, 10 months ago

I'm glad to know the commissioner votes with his heart. It would really scare me if he used his brain.

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rco1847 1 year, 10 months ago

Floyd - what are you hiding?

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rco1847 1 year, 10 months ago

I seem to recall Floyd defending Shirley Lasseter's position to. Now he acts like he never heard of her.

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elephanthead 1 year, 10 months ago

I cant speak to the issue of Beaudreau's integrity, but I have witnessed in person his dismissive, snotty, arrogant attitude during BOC meetings and town halls. He already has the air of an elected official that is outraged that the little people he supposedly represents would dare to make their wishes know to his highness. Thats OK, though - he doesn't have snowballs chance in hell of being re-elected. Bye Mike.

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nicholson 1 year, 10 months ago

Integrity is a word being tossed about here rather loosely. Beaudreau ran as a conservative, and yet his actions show him to be a big government advocate, which I consider false advertising, to put it politely. Sound familiar to someone else elected in 2008? Mike orchestrated the govt taking over the trash program from free enterprise (similar to the federal healthcare takeover), and he is for the taxpayers being on the hook for the airport expansion (kind of like Solyandra and taxpayers losing half a billion dollars). If Mike is so full of integrity, he would run on his record as a democrat.

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rco1847 1 year, 10 months ago

IT"S A SAD ENDING - There's really little cause for rejoicing next Tues even if the Brisco Plan is soundly rejected. Why? Because this isn't a vote by the commissioners following the leadership of the people. We really don't know how they might have voted if one of their own - for the 3rd time in recent memory - got caught stealing. That's will be the real reason for voting against privatizing / commercializing and not because of the public outcry. Don't be fooled if they try to say otherwise.

Some have tried to defend those commissioners who might become innocent victims if their's a clean sweep of the commission. Innocent victims? What about all the people who's lives have been on hold for the last two years? They've been innocent victims to and now it's the commissiions turn. Fire all of them.

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rco1847 1 year, 10 months ago

Fly Gwinnett Backwards and Propeller are submitting a proposal to buy the county jail. Now that's something they should know about.

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rco1847 1 year, 10 months ago

If Propeller had any integrity they'd withdraw their offer. But why bother, it's worthless and they have nothing to lose, (except their non-existant integrity).

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elephanthead 1 year, 10 months ago

Has anyone ever noticed how small children react when a treat they anticipated getting suddenly does not materialize? The candy that they were sure was just around the corner isn't there after all? Oh the tantrums and name calling against those who have deprived them, the poor little things. Seems to parallel quite nicely with some of the howler monkeys (since certain of you like the silly screaming parrot analogy) who have bitterly taken to their keyboards to protest the fact that their candy may not going to be there after all. How dare the people who would be affected by this cretinous proposal have the nerve to speak out. I and many others refused to sacrificed so that you may profit.

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Katrina 1 year, 10 months ago

Dare we call them...hysterical?? It's one of THEIR favorite words!!!

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kevin 1 year, 10 months ago

well, we all know now what happened? The ones that voted for this project decided to save their skins and vote against it since a 2-2 vote would have killed it anyway. Vote them out anyway or you will be sorry in future battles.

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